Struggling to find a sustainability job? Well, good news. You don’t have to find one…you can MAKE one. Drew Wilkinson was a punk rocker and eco-pirate when he landed a job as a paralegal at Microsoft. He felt like a fish out of water in the corporate tech world, but instead of changing his DIY-contrarian tune, Drew leaned in. Though “sustainability” wasn’t in his job description, Drew co-founded a powerful employee sustainability community. It would grow to the thousands, stretch across the globe, and push Microsoft to use their billions to do better for the planet. In the first episode of Degrees Season 6: How to Green Your Job, Drew’s story is a top-notch lesson in forging your way into a planet-saving career. He took what he already knew how to do — disrupt a system, innovate solutions, and organize folks around him — and applied it to greening his workplace. Now, he’s taking his climate solutions work outside the walls of Microsoft and working independently to help organizations become more sustainable through employee-led solutions, and make sustainability part of everybody’s job.
Drew Wilkinson is a climate activist and co-founder of Microsoft’s 10,000-member employee sustainability community, which has pushed the company to protect natural resources and operate with more sustainable practices. Now, as founder of Climate Leadership Collective, he helps organizations on the people side of sustainability: employee engagement, culture and change management, community building, green skilling, and leadership development. His mission is to make sustainability part of everybody’s job.
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Degrees: Real talk about planet-saving careers is presented by Environmental Defense Fund (EDF). Yesh Pavlik Slenk is our host. Amy Morse is EDF’s producer. Podcast Allies is our production company. Tressa Versteeg produced this episode. Mia Lobel is our story editor. Ayo Oti is our researcher and Audrey Nelson provided fact checking. Engineering by Kevin Kline. Editing assistance on this episode from executive producer Elaine Appleton Grant. Our music is Shame, Shame, Shame from Yesh’s favorite band, Lake Street Dive.
YESH PAVLIK SLENK:
Does the idea of looking for a job that pays your bills, fits your skill set, and fights climate change make you feel like this?
MUSIC (Screaming)
PAVLIK SLENK:
[laughs] We hear you! And we hope we can help in this brand new season of Degrees Season 6!
This song is Destroy All Calendars by hardcore punk rock band Run with the Hunted. Their frontman - Drew Wilkinson - is our first guest.
DREW WILKINSON:
I'm a punk, I'm a contrarian. You know, it's kind of weird to suddenly be working inside one of the largest corporates in the world.
PAVLIK SLENK:
That’s Drew. These days he’s a climate activist, a community organizer, and the co-founder of Microsoft's ten thousand plus member employee sustainability community. But before all that, he was touring the country with his band, screaming his lungs out.
MUSIC (Screaming)
PAVLIK SLENK:
I'm Yesh Pavlik Slenk and this is Degrees - Real Talk about planet saving careers from Environmental Defense Fund.
Speaking about real talk - We’ve sweltered through the hottest summer on record, there’ve been wildfires and floods and oceans as warm as hot tubs… I’ve been feeling anxious about it all, and I know you have too. But - one of the things that makes me feel better is talking to people who feel the same way I do and are doing something about it.
This season we’re on a mission to help you change to a green job or green the one you’re in. We’ll introduce you to people who’ve been on a journey to make their jobs align with their values. They’ve faced down challenges, they’ve pivoted – and they’re paving the way for us! In this series we’ll share how they did it and how you can do it too.
This is Degrees Season 6: How to Green Your Job.
THEME MUSIC
Change is coming, oh yeah
Ain’t no holding it back
Ain't no running
Change is coming, oh yeah!
PAVLIK SLENK:
So a lot of us make a career pivot at one time or another. But few follow the same path as Drew Wilkinson. In his 20s, Drew’s life was all about his band, Run with the Hunted.
PAVLIK SLENK:
You were on tour six months out of the year, presumably living out of a bus, living a creative, expressive, out of the box life.
WILKINSON:
Yeah, that's right. The only adjective that you left out of the band experience was stinky. Cause you can imagine, [laughs] All these people shoved into a tiny van… it didn't smell great, but still it was really, really fun.
PAVLIK SLENK:
The band was an extension of the counterculture ideas he’d been into since he was a teenager.
WILKINSON:
I found out about environmentalism at a pretty formative age. So did a lot of grassroots activism, like Food Not Bombs, and did lots of protests and marches and campaigns but the band just took the center stage and I had to orient my life around that.
PAVLIK SLENK:
So Drew would tour for six months out of the year. The other half of the year he did environmental work, mostly with AmeriCorps. Then, after eight years as a band, Run with The Hunted came to an end. Drew decided to move from Arizona to Seattle.
WILKINSON:
Fell in love with the northwest on tour. It was pretty much the opposite of where I grew up in the desert. So came up here, had two part-time environmental nonprofit jobs. But very quickly got sticker shock and realized I wasn't gonna be able to make it in a place like Seattle on a nonprofit salary.
PAVLIK SLENK:
So Drew started asking around. A friend from the punk scene who worked at Microsoft told him about an entry-level paralegal position. Drew scraped together a resume and got the job.
WILKINSON:
Nobody was more surprised than me. I never expected or was even intentionally looking for a door into tech.
PAVLIK SLENK:
His new job at Microsoft solved one problem - paying rent and bills. But it created another.
MUSIC
WILKINSON:
That first year that I was there - I was like a deer in the headlights. I mean, I went from a nonprofit with five people that was dependent on grants to keep the electricity running, to suddenly being dropped into the corporate headquarters of a trillion dollar tech company with like 60,000 people on a campus with a hundred buildings. I mean, I just had massive culture shock. But I was also - I felt like a sellout. I was like, this isn't who I am. I've worked in the arts, I've worked in nonprofits. I’m - I'm a punk, I'm a contrarian. I had no idea what I was doing. I was just desperately trying to orient myself.
PAVLIK SLENK:
That’s a really tough place to be. Drew needed to find ways to connect with his new coworkers. One way he did this was by joining company-sponsored clubs.
WILKINSON:
So there's like Musicians at Microsoft and Dog Lovers at Microsoft, which I was in both, and then there was also Green at Microsoft. And so I plugged into that immediately. But at that point, it was just this kind of nascent email distribution list with occasional conversation. And most of it was people complaining about stuff but not really offering solutions. So people would be like, why are we using gas powered leaf blowers outside? Why don't we have electric ones? Why do we have paper towels in the bathrooms instead of, you know, fabric or whatever? And so I was kind of like, why aren't we talking about solutions? Why aren't we building collective power as employees to figure out who made these decisions and how do we convince them to make different ones?
PAVLIK SLENK:
Drew had a lot of questions - questions he was wrestling with alone. Then, through the Green at Microsoft group, he got lucky. He found another employee who was feeling exactly the same way he was… Her name was Holly Beale.
WILKINSON:
There was just this instant kinship and instant recognition of like, oh wow - we're cut from the same cloth.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Holly was a Technical Account Manager at Microsoft - kind of like customer support. And like Drew, she was seeking solutions to bigger problems at the company. Specifically, at lunch. She was horrified by the sheer volume of cafeteria trash.
WILKINSON:
All of the items in the cafeterias were single use. So like the cups, the silverware, the plates. It's all compostable up here in the Seattle area, but it's still, you know, you gotta ship it, manufacture it, gets used for five minutes and then thrown away.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Holly eventually convinced the head of real estate and facilities to do a waste audit. Then, with this data in hand, Holly and Drew got to work figuring out how to turn that data into action.
WILKINSON:
We started scanning the organization chart internally and said, who makes these decisions? How do we meet with them? How do we take the data from this waste stream analysis? And basically said, Here's things you could do tomorrow at no cost. Here's middle term things that would cost some money, and here's our long term dream of moving our cafeterias to a zero waste model. And eventually we found them and eventually after a lot of harassment, [laughs] they agreed to sit down with us and meet with us. And they were very kind and polite and listened. And then we didn't hear anything for six months. And so we thought, well, maybe that didn't work.
MUSIC
PAVLIK SLENK:
Then, six months later, Drew and Holly got a message from the higher ups.
WILKINSON:
They invited us to the soft opening of a cafeteria remodel. And we walked through it and they said, Hey, look, we made all the ideas real. This is the first zero waste cafeteria on any Microsoft campus. And so, I mean, it just blew our minds. Like two random employees, have nothing to do with sustainability in their jobs at that time. Have no real power or influence. The light bulb went off. Llike, yes, we can get a company the size of Microsoft to change an internal operation to be more sustainable. So then the next question was, what if there were thousands of us?
PAVLIK SLENK:
So how did Drew and Holly’s two-person operation turn into a global community of over 10,000 and counting? That’s next, after the break.
MUSIC
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MUSIC
PAVLIK SLENK:
You're listening to Degrees. I’m your host Yesh Pavlik Slenk.
In Drew Wilkinson’s first years in his new job as a paralegal at Microsoft, he and his colleague, Holly Beale, found some success getting the company to reduce waste in their cafeterias. But he knew there was more such a wealthy organization could do for the climate. The way to make that happen was staring Drew right in the face: The company Hackathon.
TECHNO MUSIC
You may have heard about Hackathons - lots of tech companies and start-ups have them. Essentially, they are short windows of time set aside for employees to NOT do their regular jobs.
Instead, they are encouraged to collaborate with their colleagues to come up with creative technical solutions to whatever problems are top of mind.
WILKINSON:
They actually constructed these massive tents right outside my building in the legal department. And so for the first couple years, I was a hackathon grump and I was like, ah, man, all this techno music, I can't focus on my work. I had to like, walk around the tents to go to the bus.
PAVLIK SLENK:
A couple of years passed. Drew continued to avoid the hackathons… but he was increasingly nagged by climate anxiety. The zero waste cafeteria was nice, but it wasn't enough. Suddenly he started to see those hackathon tents not as an annoyance, but an opportunity.
WILKINSON:
So I thought, okay, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe there's something to this. Maybe I could find a way to network with other Microsoft employees and do something for a nonprofit that would be really impactful.
PAVLIK SLENK:
So, he decided to try and use Microsoft’s trillion dollar resources to do some good for something he actually cared about - the environment. There was one organization in particular Drew wanted to support - a nonprofit from the Netherlands called The Ocean Cleanup.
WILKINSON:
Their mission is to literally rid the world's oceans of plastic pollution. And so I thought, surely there's something that a tech company can do for this really ambitious nonprofit.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Drew reached out, and as it happens, The Ocean Cleanup needed a better way to classify different things in the water. Like, you’re standing at the shore and you see something floating there… Is it a twig or a plastic straw? And are there five of them, are there twenty? So Drew and a team of about 30 other hackers created a prototype using artificial intelligence to count and classify the trash.
WILKINSON:
So this was a really clear example of how technology could actually do something incredible with precision and accuracy in a scalable, repeatable way.
PAVLIK SLENK:
This wasn’t a one-time thing with The Ocean Clean up. Drew used the hackathons for more projects, too. He and Holly successfully lobbied Microsoft to create a “Hack for Sustainability” challenge. That challenge sparked hundreds of projects, including creating an open-source toolkit for carbon-efficient software and developing multi-year partnerships to help repurpose power plants to run on carbon-free energy instead of coal.
MUSIC
Drew had come a long way… yes, his job-job was still the same. He was still a paralegal paying his bills. But now he understood how a single employee could get a big company to make big changes.
WILKINSON:
You can harness the passion, the creativity, the ingenuity of employees who don't have sustainability in their job titles, who don't have any kind of formal or professional experience in this space, but have just enough understanding and education of what the problem is, and then attack it with a really unique combination of their experience, their skillset, and create things that actually go out into the real world and make a difference.
PAVLIK SLENK:
While Drew had become a Hackathon believer, he and Holly knew that sustainability required year-round effort. So they set about building an employee-led, volunteer sustainability group.
WILKINSON:
It started very small. It was just a monthly meetup group in Seattle. It was two of us, then there was five, then there was ten. There was no ambition or clear vision of what this could be or how far it could go. We didn't have a five year plan. It was just like, what can we do as employees? Let's figure it out together because no single one of us individually has the answer, you know?
PAVLIK SLENK:
Drew and Holly kept at it - recruiting, onboarding, coaching…
WILKINSON:
I did have some previous experience from my nonprofit life with volunteer management, which actually ended up being this really beautiful skillset that matched exactly with the opportunity at Microsoft. But as I started to grow and develop and recruit other people and build this kind of movement, then yeah, like my identity started to shift. And I went from, I don't feel like a sellout. I feel like somebody who saw an opportunity, was willing to do the work when no one else would and refused to give up because we were - there were many, many obstacles along the way. And now it's turning into something that can't be ignored, that can't be stopped.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Eventually, the powers that be at Microsoft took notice.
WILKINSON:
They said, Hey, we see what you're doing over there. Would you like to take it to a global level, get some logistical support, have some structure that's kind of built in.
MUSIC
PAVLIK SLENK:
Holly and Drew were still volunteering with this movement, but now they had corporate support and corporate resources, which helped expand their group even further. In 2018, Holly and Drew became co-founders of Microsoft’s official global employee sustainability community called, naturally enough, Sustainability Connected Community. Their numbers grew into the thousands.
WILKINSON:
And so we started trying to figure out how do we convince the CEO basically to, to do more, to raise the ambition to match what we saw as the urgency of the climate crisis.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Now - in addition to their monthly calls, the group would send representatives to Microsoft’s company-wide live town hall meetings. We are talking 50,000 employees.
WILKINSON:
There's a hot mic and if you stand in line and you get there early enough, you can ask any senior leader a question in front of the entire company.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Members from Sustainability Connected Community always made sure to be at the mic.
WILKINSON:
We hit 'em like six months in a row with climate questions. So that ended up being one of the most powerful levers, was like, you know, for 30 seconds worth of effort, you could raise the kind of consciousness and, and escalate this conversation to a company wide level.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Drew says this employee-led pressure pushed Microsoft to come out with some ambitious corporate commitments. In 2020, Microsoft promised to be carbon negative, water positive, and zero waste by 2030, with its employees at the center of their strategy.
WILKINSON:
And after that, the community just got turbocharged because once you had that top down buy-in, sustainability really matters. It's not just a, ‘nice to have’, we're dead serious about it. The resources started flowing, the job started opening up.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Microsoft started charging a carbon tax to internal business groups based on emissions, partnering with land conservation groups to protect bio-diverse ecosystems from development, and helping more than one million people access clean water. That same year, Drew’s job changed… from paralegal to Community Program Manager in the Communities of Practice Program.
Holly’s job had changed too. She was now a Senior Program Manager of Community Environmental Sustainability and Employee Engagement. That’s a mouthful! Suffice to say, both Holly and Drew successfully greened their careers.
WILKINSON:
And so those foundational experiences, one, gave me the confidence that I could do stuff like this in a giant corporate environment where I felt like a fish out of water. And two, it showed me the kind of opportunity again of like, this is what it looks like to take the resources of a trillion dollar tech company and use them to create solutions for the world's most pressing environmental challenges.
MUSIC
PAVLIK SLENK:
This journey, for Drew, was always more than a job.
WILKINSON:
Started as a volunteer thing. It eventually became part of my actual day job. But it was so much more than either of that. I mean, it's literally my community. These are my people. This was the thing I used every single day in the deepest parts of climate anxiety or despair to find hope. Because every single day, if you looked around somewhere in the community, you could see somebody lighting up, you could see a change happening. And so the journey that I ended up going on was also a way for me to be able to look myself in the mirror and justify my participation in a system like this.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Drew’s success at Microsoft is undeniable. But his career path took an unexpected turn. After seven years at the company, Drew got laid off - just this past year.
WILKINSON:
I mean, in this kind of macroeconomic environment, anything that's not directly contributing to increases in sales and revenue is a 'nice to have.' And so when they said like, we're laying off 10,000 people, I was like, okay, get ready because it'll probably be me. So on the one hand, it wasn't surprising when it happened, but there's still - there's no amount of mental or emotional preparation for that. You know, it just - it just stings. Like, oh crap. Like my whole life is built around this job from where I live, to like how I budget, my health insurance. You know? And so it's - it's a shock. To say the least.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Not to mention your people. I mean you described it earlier, like, you had really given of yourself to the relationships and the programs that you were building.
WILKINSON:
Totally. So, you know, it was hard. But also there was some beauty in that. I had already been thinking about my off-ramp from leading the community for a while. Like, the point is not to build a cult of personality or something like that. Like listeners can't see me, but I am white and male and there are far too many people like us taking up oxygen in the space.
So, there was also beauty in handing the baton to the next generation to somebody who was gonna do an incredible job but do it in a very different way. And on my way out the door, I did kind of -- you know, I was in a band, so I'm used to this concept of a farewell tour. So I did a farewell tour. So I did a bunch of really boring but really critical process documentation: Here's how you run the nuts and bolts of the community, here's how we do that. I documented it all so that it was out of my head and on paper. But I also said goodbye to the community. So I hosted office hours calls for every time zone, cause it was a global community, you know. And I just said, come say hi, share a story, roast me, please - I love being roasted. Ask me a question, get this knowledge out of my head and into yours before I go. And so I got to say goodbye to, you know, thousands of people from all around the world and hear from them what the [laughs] - I might cry now - hear what the community meant to them.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Now, I'm gonna cry too.
WILKINSON:
Some people put together like a - like a greeting card, like a farewell card. And people signed this card and just told me how much the community meant to them, how it changed their lives, how something I said on a call made them laugh or made them cry or whatever. And so, yeah, I mean, it was heartbreaking to like ha - um, say goodbye to that community, but also left with no regrets and just feeling like, I built something that is - again, it's like, it's a movement, it doesn't need me anymore. And there was absolutely no question what it meant to people and how it changed things.
And like, to me, that's the greatest form of success you could ever hope for. It didn't just collapse without me. We built something enduring. And in an era of mass layoffs in tech, there's, you know, something like 150,000 across the tech sector this year. Guess what? You can't lay off a decentralized volunteer community. So it turns out this is also a very durable model to continue to funnel that employee energy, and in some cases activism, into a corporate environment to drive scalable change.
So yeah, it was hard, but um, every door closing opens up a different one.
MUSIC
PAVLIK SLENK:
Now, since Microsoft, Drew has been in his own job transition. I’m sure you can relate. He’s had to decide - what’s next?!
Well, the next door he’s opened is his own consulting business. It’s still early days but now that he’s had time to process his lay-off, he’s excited about this next chapter. His goal is to help companies engage and empower their employees to push green commitments, through leadership development, community organizing, and green skilling.
WILKINSON:
I'm excited because I went deep for seven years at one company, built a kind of a model, a blueprint of what I think this can look like. And so for the next phase, I want to go shallow across a thousand companies
PAVLIK SLENK:
So Drew has been through it - as a job seeker and a job changer. Because of this, I asked him if he had any hard-won advice for you - our listeners.
His first bit of advice is… there’s no one way to get a climate job. Or as he puts it, there are many paths to the mountain top. The first sounds like the most obvious path. It’s also, possibly, the hardest.
WILKINSON:
So the first one is equivalent to following a hiking trail to the top of a mountain. It's a clearly defined path. You can find it on a map, and this is what it's like to go apply for full-time dedicated sustainability role. We need these people desperately. They're the ones who are actually doing the lion's share of the work, but those jobs will always be low proportionally to the overall workforce. And typically you need many years of experience, in some cases advanced degrees. So it will be very difficult to go from the trailhead to the top of the mountain without a whole lot of stuff in between. So I don't say that to be discouraging, I just say that to be realistic. Competitions for these jobs is fierce, especially in this environment.
PAVLIK SLENK:
The second path up the mountain is a more winding one.
WILKINSON:
The other way you can make sustainability part of your job - and the one that I'm personally more interested in - because I think it's more accessible and more scalable, is to look at the intersection of sustainability with the job you already know how to do. So my advice, look at what you already know how to do and reimagine not just how you can do it more sustainably. This is about systems change. This is about scale. If you're a finance analyst or a project manager, zoom out and go, how can finance analysts, how can project managers writ large - the entire discipline, the entire industry - reimagine how they do their jobs to put sustainability at the beginning of every process, and at the center of everything that you do? That is not only how you will eventually get to a full-time sustainability job, but it is the path of least resistance. And it is the most scalable one, in my opinion.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Drew’s third bit of advice, and the one he’s been so successful at in his own career, is to find people around you, coworkers, who want to work with you. There’s power in numbers.
WILKINSON:
If there's an existing employee sustainability community where you work - a green team or an employee resource group - join it. Volunteer to be in a leadership position. Give it your time and energy, nurture it, grow it, turn it into something that can become this utopian vision. And if it doesn't exist at your company, start it. And don't wait. Don't wait till tomorrow. Don't wait to say, oh, I don't have enough information, or, I don't know how to do this. Just start. I can tell you from personal experience that like, you will figure it out as you go, but you need to build it for them to come. Your company needs you. They need your disruption, they need your innovation, they need your organization.
PAVLIK SLENK:
I love that advice. There’s just one more thing I had to ask Drew about. It’s something that brings us back to the beginning of the episode. Remember this?
MUSIC (Screaming)
PAVLIK SLENK:
[laughs] I wanted to know, what is something that the corporate world and the punk world can learn from each other that people might not expect?
WILKINSON:
Yeah. Well, [laughs] when companies talk about innovation, they mean a lot of different things. But essentially what innovation is is disruption. It's doing something in a new way, right? So at the beginning, that kind of disruption can be uncomfortable, maybe even unwanted. But when it comes to addressing the climate crisis, you know, obviously there's disruption happening all around us. You can look at the news headlines to see the latest kind of weather disasters that are happening all around the country as we speak. But for internal practices in a company, what is, what it means is you're going to have to change. And so the kinds of people who initiate innovation tend to be contrarian, tend to be out of the box thinkers, tend to be people who are not shy from questioning authority or - as one of my former colleagues often said of m -, shaking the snow globe. And so I had learned so many foundational skills and the underground punk scene that, in a really hilarious way, I never thought it would go this way, but are extremely beneficial in the corporate world.
So number one, getting on stage and, you know, doing public speaking. Thankfully I'm not screaming at people in a corporate environment - sometimes I would like to, but uh, that was super helpful. But it's that do-it-yourself, that DIY ethos, right? Like nobody told us to go build an employee sustainability community. Nobody told us to start harassing the people who worked in waste management on campus. In fact, many people told us not to do these things. But that kind of do it yourself ethos, this is critical. I see the opportunity, I see the need. I don't see anybody else raising their hand. I'm just gonna do it myself. And having, I guess, the audacity to challenge the status quo and push back against, in some cases, all the way up to a CEO level, and say, you're not doing enough on this issue. Like, don't take it personally, nobody's doing enough. But I think what we successfully argued at Microsoft was you have a tremendous opportunity and responsibility to use all of the resources that this company has, to create the incentives and the systems change and the markets change to bring others along. And it worked. You know, I don't don't want to say that it's only because of employees. There's many factors that were applying pressure to the company to make this pivot. But it is beyond doubt that employees played a part in that.
OUTRO MUSIC
PAVLIK SLENK:
That's it for this episode of Degrees. On the next episode of Degrees…
CIARA IMANI MAY:
So I was just like, well, I don't feel comfortable like, putting water bottles and jars and whatever else in the trash. I have to figure out, you know, what does not having trash look like?
PAVLIK SLENK:
Be sure to check out prior episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you're listening now. Share this podcast with a friend and learn where the jobs are and how you can make a difference.
And don’t forget, check out our Green Jobs Hub to find all the resources to jumpstart your green job career search. Visit our show notes for that link, plus the link to Drew Wilkinson’s website and other resources mentioned in this episode.
Degrees is presented by Environmental Defense Fund. Amy Morse is our producer. Podcast Allies is our production company. Tressa Versteeg produced this episode. Mia Lobel is our story editor. Ayo Oti is our researcher and Audrey Nelson provided fact checking. Engineering by Kevin Kline. Editing assistance on this episode from executive producer Elaine Appleton Grant.
Our theme music is Shame, Shame, Shame from Lake Street Dive. And I’m your host, Yesh Pavlik Slenk. Stay fired up y’all.
THEME MUSIC
Change is coming, oh yeah
Ain’t no holding it back
Ain't no running
Change is coming, oh yeah
WILKINSON:
I still like Del Taco more than Taco Bell. Sorry TB, I got a special place in my heart for TB too, but can't get french fries there.
PAVLIK SLENK:
Amazing. I always - anytime I go to Taco Bell, I always reflect like, these are the same six ingredients in just different shells.